Max Verstappen
Discussion
Muzzer79 said:
A44RON said:
Muzzer79 said:
The 2012 Mercedes won a race in China but only scored two other podiums that year - one each for Rosberg and Schumacher. Aside from those 3 rostrum appearances, it's best result was 5th.
Hamilton allegedly made his decision around the 2012 Singapore GP, when his McLaren transmission broke whilst leading. Mercedes only scored one points finish in the six races after Singapore so I'm not sure how that translates as a car getting "better and better"
The McLaren MP4-27 won two of the last six races, plus six top five finishes.
Mercedes had potential, with Brawn and the backing of Mercedes but the point here isn't about potential, it's about risk. Deadslow claims there was none, but there irrefutably was.
The point here IS very much about potential though. After all, they were in prime position to capitalise on the 2014 hybrid era thanks to Ross Brawn's genius, their enormous budget, being a works factory team and having their vast pool of very very talented personnel already in place. People in here underestimate the groundwork and foundations that Ross Brawn laid from 2010 to 2013. Compare that to what McLaren-Mercedes were offering going forwards in terms of resources, sponsorship, customer engines, design direction....Hamilton allegedly made his decision around the 2012 Singapore GP, when his McLaren transmission broke whilst leading. Mercedes only scored one points finish in the six races after Singapore so I'm not sure how that translates as a car getting "better and better"
The McLaren MP4-27 won two of the last six races, plus six top five finishes.
Mercedes had potential, with Brawn and the backing of Mercedes but the point here isn't about potential, it's about risk. Deadslow claims there was none, but there irrefutably was.
Deadslow’s claim was that there was no risk. For a start, there’s risk in every employer change, F1 or not.
If I was a driver moving to Red Bull for 2024, there’d be risk. Small risk, granted, but still risk.
Moving to Mercedes in 2013 carried a lot more risk. With crystal clear hindsight, it’s easy to say they were always on a winning path, but at the time nobody knew that - it was all could-be, should-be.
or as I said previously Ross Brawn spearheading their direction, full works factory backing (crucial for the upcoming hybrid era), very talented key personnel in place, huge budget... when looking at it objectively that's not a greater risk compared to McLaren if that's what you're implying. That's a small risk long-term.It's not like Mercedes were doing a Toyota in the early-mid 2000s and just had a huge budget without the highly talented resources in place and a genius visionary leading the charge, the foundations at Mercedes were already firmly in place by the time Ross Brawn got the boot and Toto Wolff took over at the end of 2013. Ross doesn't get the credit he deserves.
Edited by A44RON on Saturday 18th November 06:02
A44RON said:
Muzzer79 said:
A44RON said:
Muzzer79 said:
The 2012 Mercedes won a race in China but only scored two other podiums that year - one each for Rosberg and Schumacher. Aside from those 3 rostrum appearances, it's best result was 5th.
Hamilton allegedly made his decision around the 2012 Singapore GP, when his McLaren transmission broke whilst leading. Mercedes only scored one points finish in the six races after Singapore so I'm not sure how that translates as a car getting "better and better"
The McLaren MP4-27 won two of the last six races, plus six top five finishes.
Mercedes had potential, with Brawn and the backing of Mercedes but the point here isn't about potential, it's about risk. Deadslow claims there was none, but there irrefutably was.
The point here IS very much about potential though. After all, they were in prime position to capitalise on the 2014 hybrid era thanks to Ross Brawn's genius, their enormous budget, being a works factory team and having their vast pool of very very talented personnel already in place. People in here underestimate the groundwork and foundations that Ross Brawn laid from 2010 to 2013. Compare that to what McLaren-Mercedes were offering going forwards in terms of resources, sponsorship, customer engines, design direction....Hamilton allegedly made his decision around the 2012 Singapore GP, when his McLaren transmission broke whilst leading. Mercedes only scored one points finish in the six races after Singapore so I'm not sure how that translates as a car getting "better and better"
The McLaren MP4-27 won two of the last six races, plus six top five finishes.
Mercedes had potential, with Brawn and the backing of Mercedes but the point here isn't about potential, it's about risk. Deadslow claims there was none, but there irrefutably was.
Deadslow’s claim was that there was no risk. For a start, there’s risk in every employer change, F1 or not.
If I was a driver moving to Red Bull for 2024, there’d be risk. Small risk, granted, but still risk.
Moving to Mercedes in 2013 carried a lot more risk. With crystal clear hindsight, it’s easy to say they were always on a winning path, but at the time nobody knew that - it was all could-be, should-be.
or as I said previously Ross Brawn spearheading their direction, full works factory backing (crucial for the upcoming hybrid era), very talented key personnel in place, huge budget... when looking at it objectively that's not a greater risk compared to McLaren if that's what you're implying. That's a small risk long-term.It's not like Mercedes were doing a Toyota in the early-mid 2000s and just had a huge budget without the highly talented resources in place and a genius visionary leading the charge, the foundations at Mercedes were already firmly in place by the time Ross Brawn got the boot and Toto Wolff took over at the end of 2013. Ross doesn't get the credit he deserves.
Edited by A44RON on Saturday 18th November 06:02
A44RON said:
Muzzer79 said:
A44RON said:
Muzzer79 said:
The 2012 Mercedes won a race in China but only scored two other podiums that year - one each for Rosberg and Schumacher. Aside from those 3 rostrum appearances, it's best result was 5th.
Hamilton allegedly made his decision around the 2012 Singapore GP, when his McLaren transmission broke whilst leading. Mercedes only scored one points finish in the six races after Singapore so I'm not sure how that translates as a car getting "better and better"
The McLaren MP4-27 won two of the last six races, plus six top five finishes.
Mercedes had potential, with Brawn and the backing of Mercedes but the point here isn't about potential, it's about risk. Deadslow claims there was none, but there irrefutably was.
The point here IS very much about potential though. After all, they were in prime position to capitalise on the 2014 hybrid era thanks to Ross Brawn's genius, their enormous budget, being a works factory team and having their vast pool of very very talented personnel already in place. People in here underestimate the groundwork and foundations that Ross Brawn laid from 2010 to 2013. Compare that to what McLaren-Mercedes were offering going forwards in terms of resources, sponsorship, customer engines, design direction....Hamilton allegedly made his decision around the 2012 Singapore GP, when his McLaren transmission broke whilst leading. Mercedes only scored one points finish in the six races after Singapore so I'm not sure how that translates as a car getting "better and better"
The McLaren MP4-27 won two of the last six races, plus six top five finishes.
Mercedes had potential, with Brawn and the backing of Mercedes but the point here isn't about potential, it's about risk. Deadslow claims there was none, but there irrefutably was.
Deadslow’s claim was that there was no risk. For a start, there’s risk in every employer change, F1 or not.
If I was a driver moving to Red Bull for 2024, there’d be risk. Small risk, granted, but still risk.
Moving to Mercedes in 2013 carried a lot more risk. With crystal clear hindsight, it’s easy to say they were always on a winning path, but at the time nobody knew that - it was all could-be, should-be.
or as I said previously Ross Brawn spearheading their direction, full works factory backing (crucial for the upcoming hybrid era), very talented key personnel in place, huge budget... when looking at it objectively that's not a greater risk compared to McLaren if that's what you're implying. That's a small risk long-term.It's not like Mercedes were doing a Toyota in the early-mid 2000s and just had a huge budget without the highly talented resources in place and a genius visionary leading the charge, the foundations at Mercedes were already firmly in place by the time Ross Brawn got the boot and Toto Wolff took over at the end of 2013. Ross doesn't get the credit he deserves.
Edited by A44RON on Saturday 18th November 06:02
The indisputable fact is that moving from a multi-race winning team that wins the last race of the season to another team that barely troubled the podium was a risk.
It was claimed there was no risk. There clearly, absolutely was.
Ross Brawn, works backing and all that are wonderful in hindsight. But Honda had all that in 2008 and joining them wouldn’t have turned out so rosily…..
The foundations were there but there were absolutely no guarantees. There never can be, hence there is risk.
Muzzer79 said:
Carried a lot more risk than the example I gave of moving to Red Bull in 2024…..
The indisputable fact is that moving from a multi-race winning team that wins the last race of the season to another team that barely troubled the podium was a risk.
It was claimed there was no risk. There clearly, absolutely was.
Ross Brawn, works backing and all that are wonderful in hindsight. But Honda had all that in 2008 and joining them wouldn’t have turned out so rosily…..
The foundations were there but there were absolutely no guarantees. There never can be, hence there is risk.
I’d assume the same posters would say there was little risk going to Renault for Danny too? Works team, own engine, lots of money going into it… worked out from memory? The indisputable fact is that moving from a multi-race winning team that wins the last race of the season to another team that barely troubled the podium was a risk.
It was claimed there was no risk. There clearly, absolutely was.
Ross Brawn, works backing and all that are wonderful in hindsight. But Honda had all that in 2008 and joining them wouldn’t have turned out so rosily…..
The foundations were there but there were absolutely no guarantees. There never can be, hence there is risk.
A44RON said:
carried a lot more risk as compared to what? McLaren being a customer team and haemorraging money or as I said previously Ross Brawn spearheading their direction, full works factory backing (crucial for the upcoming hybrid era), very talented key personnel in place, huge budget... when looking at it objectively that's not a greater risk compared to McLaren if that's what you're implying. That's a small risk long-term.
It's not like Mercedes were doing a Toyota in the early-mid 2000s and just had a huge budget without the highly talented resources in place and a genius visionary leading the charge, the foundations at Mercedes were already firmly in place by the time Ross Brawn got the boot and Toto Wolff took over at the end of 2013. Ross doesn't get the credit he deserves.
^^this^^ or as I said previously Ross Brawn spearheading their direction, full works factory backing (crucial for the upcoming hybrid era), very talented key personnel in place, huge budget... when looking at it objectively that's not a greater risk compared to McLaren if that's what you're implying. That's a small risk long-term.It's not like Mercedes were doing a Toyota in the early-mid 2000s and just had a huge budget without the highly talented resources in place and a genius visionary leading the charge, the foundations at Mercedes were already firmly in place by the time Ross Brawn got the boot and Toto Wolff took over at the end of 2013. Ross doesn't get the credit he deserves.
Edited by A44RON on Saturday 18th November 06:02
There is also risk by staying in the same place.
McLaren were never going to slug it out against the works Mercedes.
PlywoodPascal said:
you need only look at the media coverage of the move at the time to see that the general consensus was that moving to Mercedes was at best a huge risk or at worst going to be a career-ending move. It was viewed similarly to Ricciardo moving to Renault or Villeneuve moving to BAR.
consensus schmensusLauda was correct.
PlywoodPascal said:
you need only look at the media coverage of the move at the time to see that the general consensus was that moving to Mercedes was at best a huge risk or at worst going to be a career-ending move. It was viewed similarly to Ricciardo moving to Renault or Villeneuve moving to BAR.
You're wasting your time: contrarians will always ignore evidence.If we're talking about Hamilton in the Verstappen thread again...
Hamilton's career reminds me of that famous saying- "The harder I work, the luckier I get".
People like to characterise Hamilton a particular way but if you listen to any of his team mates, current or former, they are all astounded how hard he works.
In modern F1 you can rack up quite a tally given the right circumstances, but achieving success over such a long period for more than one team does not happen by accident.
Hamilton's career reminds me of that famous saying- "The harder I work, the luckier I get".
People like to characterise Hamilton a particular way but if you listen to any of his team mates, current or former, they are all astounded how hard he works.
In modern F1 you can rack up quite a tally given the right circumstances, but achieving success over such a long period for more than one team does not happen by accident.
Bo_apex said:
PlywoodPascal said:
you need only look at the media coverage of the move at the time to see that the general consensus was that moving to Mercedes was at best a huge risk or at worst going to be a career-ending move. It was viewed similarly to Ricciardo moving to Renault or Villeneuve moving to BAR.
consensus schmensusLauda was correct.
But he wasn’t correct when he was at Jaguar. Nor when he was at Ferrari.
So, perhaps not a bloke you’d stake your career on?
This isn’t about who was right or wrong with hindsight. With hindsight, of course it was a good idea.
But nobody knew that at the time and it’s a fact that the consensus was that Hamilton was taking a big risk.
But I’m sure you’ll come up with some convoluted reasoning built on sand that, in your mind, makes your point…..
Muzzer79 said:
Bo_apex said:
PlywoodPascal said:
you need only look at the media coverage of the move at the time to see that the general consensus was that moving to Mercedes was at best a huge risk or at worst going to be a career-ending move. It was viewed similarly to Ricciardo moving to Renault or Villeneuve moving to BAR.
consensus schmensusLauda was correct.
But he wasn’t correct when he was at Jaguar. Nor when he was at Ferrari.
So, perhaps not a bloke you’d stake your career on?
This isn’t about who was right or wrong with hindsight. With hindsight, of course it was a good idea.
But nobody knew that at the time and it’s a fact that the consensus was that Hamilton was taking a big risk.
But I’m sure you’ll come up with some convoluted reasoning built on sand that, in your mind, makes your point…..
I wasn't shocked, just irritated with Max' first corner move. Hugely unsubtle and was relying on all stewards/commentators sagely pointing out that the track was green/full tanks/first corner of first lap, etc. However, those were all known issues and, as one of the best drivers in the world, he should have been able to err on the side of caution to stay within the rules - not blatantly ignore them and expect to be allowed to do so...., because MV (after winning the race it is easy to be conciliatory). Reminiscent of his banzai self-entitled, hot-headed Brazil 2021 incident, but more mature and slightly calmer
.Then, there was the incident when George turned into him where he should have shown more circumspection.
Apart from those two glitches, I was very impressed with the rest of his race though.
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