Max Verstappen
Discussion
Blink982 said:
You should see BBC HYS, it doesn’t matter what the topic is, there’s a rabid mob that will turn it around to slagging off Hamilton. Apparently he is to blame for Mike Elliott leaving MB….. it’s a bizarre place and makes Pistonheads Max/Lewis threads appear to be tame and sensible in comparison.
Yep, the BBC comments are often loopy, same on Twitter. It is actually way better here, there is some really sensible and well-informed discussion. 520TORQUES said:
Does it?
Ferrari recruited and built there team around Schumacher, the brains from Benetton also jumped ship.
Like most things, it depends.
Most performance always comes from the engineers.
Ferrari recruited and built there team around Schumacher, the brains from Benetton also jumped ship.
Like most things, it depends.
Most performance always comes from the engineers.
RB Will said:
It doesn't as they would probably just go to the new team and build that around them
it proves that it wasn't 'just' the carit shows your ability to adapt to a new car
it shows your ability to adapt to a new team
& it shows you can cope with the pressure of expectency that is applied to all WDC's when they join a new team
iirc Schumi in '96 & Hamilton in '13 were both pretty punchy in their first year at their new teams, before they even had chance to 'build' the team around them ...not even sure Hamilton bought anyone along with him from McLaren at all?
Worth a revisit. Talks about the move.
https://youtu.be/knteY3kq3Ys?si=O-cK81xO65ABo5zo
https://youtu.be/knteY3kq3Ys?si=O-cK81xO65ABo5zo
Edited by 520TORQUES on Thursday 2nd November 12:31
520TORQUES said:
deadslow said:
wrong thread?
No, discusses the "risk" moving to Mercedes when everyone thought it was "risky"deadslow said:
520TORQUES said:
deadslow said:
wrong thread?
No, discusses the "risk" moving to Mercedes when everyone thought it was "risky"deadslow said:
yes, but irrespective of what he says for PR, he wanted out of Macca, and Macca were on a downward trajectory. Merc, who paid his wages since he was 14, and bought him into championship winning machinery since he was a teenager, ask him to join the works team. He trusts them. It's no greater risk than going out to the first test in the new Macca. If it had gone badly wrong he would know he would be more than welcome at RB or Fezza. What was he risking, exactly?
It appears despite the evidence you are going to maintain your opinion that is contrary to the vast majority of people including his team mate and Lewis himself. That's your prerogative. 520TORQUES said:
deadslow said:
yes, but irrespective of what he says for PR, he wanted out of Macca, and Macca were on a downward trajectory. Merc, who paid his wages since he was 14, and bought him into championship winning machinery since he was a teenager, ask him to join the works team. He trusts them. It's no greater risk than going out to the first test in the new Macca. If it had gone badly wrong he would know he would be more than welcome at RB or Fezza. What was he risking, exactly?
It appears despite the evidence you are going to maintain your opinion that is contrary to the vast majority of people including his team mate and Lewis himself. That's your prerogative. With one WDC to his name at that point, a few years in a bad Merc, who knows if RB or Fezza would’ve picked up the phone to him.
HighwayStar said:
Don’t you know, his opinion is the only one that matters but he did suggest that Lewis would’ve more than welcome at RB or Fezza. A lot of his believe he’s not much of a driver and in his case it was all car.
With one WDC to his name at that point, a few years in a bad Merc, who knows if RB or Fezza would’ve picked up the phone to him.
The bloke had already proven he was a generational talent, every team would want him.With one WDC to his name at that point, a few years in a bad Merc, who knows if RB or Fezza would’ve picked up the phone to him.
520TORQUES said:
HighwayStar said:
Don’t you know, his opinion is the only one that matters but he did suggest that Lewis would’ve more than welcome at RB or Fezza. A lot of his believe he’s not much of a driver and in his case it was all car.
With one WDC to his name at that point, a few years in a bad Merc, who knows if RB or Fezza would’ve picked up the phone to him.
The bloke had already proven he was a generational talent, every team would want him.With one WDC to his name at that point, a few years in a bad Merc, who knows if RB or Fezza would’ve picked up the phone to him.
deadslow said:
520TORQUES said:
deadslow said:
wrong thread?
No, discusses the "risk" moving to Mercedes when everyone thought it was "risky"He's risking the same as anyone else who moves from a winning team to a less-winning team.
He's risking signing a 3 year deal and the car is a dog.
In 3 years' time, maybe RB or Ferrari think he's yesterday's news? Maybe they think he was a flash in the pan?
It's hard to show how good you are in a car that doesn't work. It was by no means a given that the Mercedes would work.
If you're truly objective, it's obvious that moving teams was a risk at the time. Everyone thought he was mad. No-one could have predicted that the car that won the last race of 2012 (McLaren) would be nowhere from 2013 onwards.....
520TORQUES said:
deadslow said:
yes, but irrespective of what he says for PR, he wanted out of Macca, and Macca were on a downward trajectory. Merc, who paid his wages since he was 14, and bought him into championship winning machinery since he was a teenager, ask him to join the works team. He trusts them. It's no greater risk than going out to the first test in the new Macca. If it had gone badly wrong he would know he would be more than welcome at RB or Fezza. What was he risking, exactly?
It appears despite the evidence you are going to maintain your opinion that is contrary to the vast majority of people including his team mate and Lewis himself. That's your prerogative. Muzzer79 said:
deadslow said:
520TORQUES said:
deadslow said:
wrong thread?
No, discusses the "risk" moving to Mercedes when everyone thought it was "risky"He's risking the same as anyone else who moves from a winning team to a less-winning team.
He's risking signing a 3 year deal and the car is a dog.
In 3 years' time, maybe RB or Ferrari think he's yesterday's news? Maybe they think he was a flash in the pan?
It's hard to show how good you are in a car that doesn't work. It was by no means a given that the Mercedes would work.
If you're truly objective, it's obvious that moving teams was a risk at the time. Everyone thought he was mad. No-one could have predicted that the car that won the last race of 2012 (McLaren) would be nowhere from 2013 onwards.....
Muzzer79 said:
I know you're well known as being not-exactly-a-Lewis-fan but.......come on.
He's risking the same as anyone else who moves from a winning team to a less-winning team.
He's risking signing a 3 year deal and the car is a dog.
In 3 years' time, maybe RB or Ferrari think he's yesterday's news? Maybe they think he was a flash in the pan?
It's hard to show how good you are in a car that doesn't work. It was by no means a given that the Mercedes would work.
If you're truly objective, it's obvious that moving teams was a risk at the time. Everyone thought he was mad. No-one could have predicted that the car that won the last race of 2012 (McLaren) would be nowhere from 2013 onwards.....
No, they didn't. Martin Brundle was very outspoken at the time saying it "could be a shrewd move going to the works team" etc. After all, they had the genius Ross Brawn spearheading the upward trajectory, it was one of (if not the most) well-resourced $$$$ teams at the time, a huge Factory Works team no less... and they had a very generous pool of ridiculously talented people. The 2012 Mercedes was already a proven race winner in the hands of Nico Rosberg and getting better & better. He's risking the same as anyone else who moves from a winning team to a less-winning team.
He's risking signing a 3 year deal and the car is a dog.
In 3 years' time, maybe RB or Ferrari think he's yesterday's news? Maybe they think he was a flash in the pan?
It's hard to show how good you are in a car that doesn't work. It was by no means a given that the Mercedes would work.
If you're truly objective, it's obvious that moving teams was a risk at the time. Everyone thought he was mad. No-one could have predicted that the car that won the last race of 2012 (McLaren) would be nowhere from 2013 onwards.....
In 2013 Mercedes had the second-best car on the grid. McLaren were losing huge sponsorship money and hadn't had sole works factory backing since 2009. The writing was on the wall.
A44RON said:
In 2013 Mercedes had the second-best car on the grid. McLaren were losing huge sponsorship money and hadn't had sole works factory backing since 2009. The writing was on the wall.
In 2012 though, when LH presumably signed on the line, they were nowhere. Distant fifth place. And McLaren very much still at the sharp end. That said I don’t think it was quite the enormous risk it is sometimes made out to be. With such an enormous rule change incoming for 2014, I think present form was going to count for very little and with a clean slate, the whole set up at MB was looking as good a horse to back as anywhere else. A gamble, yes but possibly less of a gamble than staying put. Gad-Westy said:
A44RON said:
In 2013 Mercedes had the second-best car on the grid. McLaren were losing huge sponsorship money and hadn't had sole works factory backing since 2009. The writing was on the wall.
In 2012 though, when LH presumably signed on the line, they were nowhere. Distant fifth place. And McLaren very much still at the sharp end. That said I don’t think it was quite the enormous risk it is sometimes made out to be. With such an enormous rule change incoming for 2014, I think present form was going to count for very little and with a clean slate, the whole set up at MB was looking as good a horse to back as anywhere else. A gamble, yes but possibly less of a gamble than staying put. A44RON said:
No, they didn't. Martin Brundle was very outspoken at the time saying it "could be a shrewd move going to the works team" etc. After all, they had the genius Ross Brawn spearheading the upward trajectory, it was one of (if not the most) well-resourced $$$$ teams at the time, a huge Factory Works team no less... and they had a very generous pool of ridiculously talented people. The 2012 Mercedes was already a proven race winner in the hands of Nico Rosberg and getting better & better.
In 2013 Mercedes had the second-best car on the grid. McLaren were losing huge sponsorship money and hadn't had sole works factory backing since 2009. The writing was on the wall.
Brundle also said he thought it might be too soon by a couple of years, acknowledging there was an element of risk to the decision. Rosbergs sole win in 2012 was a one off; they didn't capitalise on it, the car fell away quite dramatically for the rest of the season, gaining only two further podiums, with the team slipping down to fifth by season end, so it didn't get better & better at all. Their points tally from over the three seasons doesn't look great either, dropping from 214, to 165 and then 142 in 2012. Toto Wolf was still negotiating his way into the team, & Schumacher hadn't made the dramatic impact people had expected. It's easy to look at what subsequently happened & surmise Hamiltons decision was an obvious one, but it clearly wasn't. The atmosphere at McLaren may have changed, but presented the more reliable choice, even if it's subsequent trajectory might seem otherwise.In 2013 Mercedes had the second-best car on the grid. McLaren were losing huge sponsorship money and hadn't had sole works factory backing since 2009. The writing was on the wall.
A44RON said:
Muzzer79 said:
I know you're well known as being not-exactly-a-Lewis-fan but.......come on.
He's risking the same as anyone else who moves from a winning team to a less-winning team.
He's risking signing a 3 year deal and the car is a dog.
In 3 years' time, maybe RB or Ferrari think he's yesterday's news? Maybe they think he was a flash in the pan?
It's hard to show how good you are in a car that doesn't work. It was by no means a given that the Mercedes would work.
If you're truly objective, it's obvious that moving teams was a risk at the time. Everyone thought he was mad. No-one could have predicted that the car that won the last race of 2012 (McLaren) would be nowhere from 2013 onwards.....
No, they didn't. Martin Brundle was very outspoken at the time saying it "could be a shrewd move going to the works team" etc. After all, they had the genius Ross Brawn spearheading the upward trajectory, it was one of (if not the most) well-resourced $$$$ teams at the time, a huge Factory Works team no less... and they had a very generous pool of ridiculously talented people. The 2012 Mercedes was already a proven race winner in the hands of Nico Rosberg and getting better & better. He's risking the same as anyone else who moves from a winning team to a less-winning team.
He's risking signing a 3 year deal and the car is a dog.
In 3 years' time, maybe RB or Ferrari think he's yesterday's news? Maybe they think he was a flash in the pan?
It's hard to show how good you are in a car that doesn't work. It was by no means a given that the Mercedes would work.
If you're truly objective, it's obvious that moving teams was a risk at the time. Everyone thought he was mad. No-one could have predicted that the car that won the last race of 2012 (McLaren) would be nowhere from 2013 onwards.....
In 2013 Mercedes had the second-best car on the grid. McLaren were losing huge sponsorship money and hadn't had sole works factory backing since 2009. The writing was on the wall.
A44RON said:
The 2012 Mercedes was already a proven race winner in the hands of Nico Rosberg and getting better & better.
The 2012 Mercedes won a race in China but only scored two other podiums that year - one each for Rosberg and Schumacher. Aside from those 3 rostrum appearances, it's best result was 5th.Hamilton allegedly made his decision around the 2012 Singapore GP, when his McLaren transmission broke whilst leading. Mercedes only scored one points finish in the six races after Singapore so I'm not sure how that translates as a car getting "better and better"
The McLaren MP4-27 won two of the last six races, plus six top five finishes.
Mercedes had potential, with Brawn and the backing of Mercedes but the point here isn't about potential, it's about risk. Deadslow claims there was none, but there irrefutably was.
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